[ male announcer ] a european-inspired suspension, but it's not from germany. ♪ a powerful, fuel-efficient engine, but it's not from japan. ♪ it's a car like no other... from a place like no other. introducing the all-new 2013 chevrolet malibu, our greatest malibu ever. ♪

producer john tower, we have our replacements for fiscal cliff. please only read the clean ones. >> jason writes, money boo boo. calvin, pricey precipice. i like this one. allen, monetary manhole. >> monetary manhole. we're getting stripper names and other categories we don't want to get into. great show, everyone. "morning joe" starts right now. > ♪ and i'm free ♪ free falling you know, it's a special time of the year. we've been looking forward to it for months now. and everywhere you go, you can see the twinkle in little children's eyes because they know that in just a few short weeks, ♪ the fiscal cliff is coming to town ♪ merry cliffmas. and with a dramatic name like fiscal cliff, it's got to be exciting. jim? >> the president's asking for $1.6 trillion in revenue. >> $600 billion in tax hikes.

>> entitlement reform. >> dividends and capital gains. >> discretionary spending. [ cheers and applause ] >> i'm up. what happened? is it over? [ bleep ] good morning. it's wednesday, december 12th. look at that shot of new york city. >> wow. >> it's dark at 6:00 on the east coast. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set here in new york city, we have msnbc contributor, mike barnicle. >> in my ear, mika. >> no, he was at the white house. >> i don't understand. where's t.j.? >> he's off today. >> why's that? >> he was busy. he went to the white house. >> that's great. you know, alex went to the white house, too. >> and drove back himself. >> let me get this straight. so alex goes to the white house last night. >> mm-hmm. >> because, you know, right-wing bloggers, we actually -- that's

how we get our talking points. they go down -- valerie and david axelrod together make a big pot roast for us. >> mm-hmm. >> and lots of gravy. and we sit around eating it. and i, of course, say okay, give me extra gravy. i'm good with it. >> right. >> best sweet tea i've ever had. >> there's a give and take. >> actually, it was a christmas party. go ahead and do your blog. you sure as hell didn't get mitt romney to like it. they're not attacking me. i wouldn't know. i don't read it. so t.j. goes down. this is big. it's big. alex comes back. >> drove back. >> and he works. >> drove from b.d.c. >> he's like cal ripken jr. what's the t.j. analogy? >> he's billy ripken.

i'm not knocking billy ripken. he didn't have the streak. >> who's somebody that gets hit and leaves the game? here's the bears' quarterback. what's his name again? >> cutler. >> easy, easy. no, no, no. cutler's tough. cutler's tough. >> yeah, remember when he sat on the sidelines in a playoff game. >> his leg was torn up. come on. >> i got it. >> mark sanchez. >> t.j.'s glad to be on the sidelines. >> give sanchez a clip board. >> msnbc political analyst, harold ford jr. is here. >> good morning. i play hurt. >> you do play hurt. what do you play? >> hurt. >> so is that the policy if there's a christmas party the night before, we don't have to come to work the next day? >> it is if you're t.j. >> i'm out of here. >> because my uncle frank's getting some people together tonight. >> we have to prepare, actually. >> so, yeah. so i won't be here tomorrow. t.j., what are you doing? >> he's phoning it in. not that we don't love dave.

dave's great. >> alex, was it fun? >> how was it? >> he can't talk. he's too tired. >> can you find the button? can somebody get -- >> what does he do for a living? >> it's not working. >> good lord. >> hold on. hold on. >> the moment's passed. >> hold on. let's just stop right now. because something, i think, very instructive just happened. >> what? what? >> so we start the show. >> yeah? >> chris licht's our v.p. five years ago. immediately we walk out, and chris licht goes, where am i going to be sitting? >> on the set. >> on the set. >> he thinks he's talent sometimes. >> he does. alex, after being here for years, doesn't even know where the mike button is. do you think spanky didn't know where that was? >> oh, he knew where it was. but remember, he used to wear the headset on set.

>> he's going to kill us. >> anyway. but chris knew where that button was. alex, let me try this again. how was the christmas party last night at the white house? >> it was good. does that work? great. >> you know what? lose the button, okay? just never mind. actually, chris was down there. >> now we know why alex doesn't use the button. >> alex is iron man. he just does his job. >> let's get to the news. >> he gets that lunch pail in the morning, puts on the hat. >> all right. >> goes to work. on the assembly line. >> speaking of work -- >> while republican governors try to tear the very fabric of the working man's life. >> they seem to be doing that in some states. >> not allowing union bosses to compel them to write checks from their paychecks. where they don't belong. >> front page of all the papers. controversial right-to-work

measures will soon be the law of the land in michigan. republican governor rick snider signed the law despite wide protests at the capitol. the law will make it illegal for a union employee to pay union dues as a condition of their employment. >> let's explain that. just for half a second. then we'll go on. right to work, what does it mean? people ask me, what does it mean? it means unions can force somebody to pay them if they want to get a job in the state of michigan. >> well, what it means is, if you get a job, the union extracts money from your paycheck for the dues for union dues. >> well, yeah. >> automatically. >> automatically. >> you've got no choice. oh, you want to work here? well, you've got to pay us. >> right. >> what if i don't want to pay you? what if i don't want to support the candidates you support? what if they're the antithesis of my values? too bad. and so i've never understood this. >> governor snider says it was

the unions who started the fight in the first place. by trying to add collective bargaining rights in the state's constitution. >> i asked them not to go forward. and the reasons i said is is you're going to start a very divisive discussion regarding collective bargaining first but it also will get into right to work. it continued to escalate and was becoming very divisive. the way i viewed it as, it's on the table, it's a hot issue. let's show leadership. so i stepped up to say when i review it, it's a good thing. it's about being pro-worker and economic development. we'll get more and better jobs coming to michigan because we're going to be more competitive. >> oh. michigan has the fifth highest -- >> it's going to be on today. >> -- fifth highest percentage of unionized workers. more than 17%. and it's hardly alone in passing right-to-work laws. 23 other states have already done the same. there were heated moments at yesterday's right-to-work rally in lansing, michigan. youtube video posted by a brightbart contributor shows

demonstrators tearing down the tent belonging to americans for prosperity, the conservative advocacy group with ties to the koch brothers. according to "politico," the group says it is sharing the video to show, quote, the true nature of unions. the group has already sent out a fund-raiser e-mail including this video. also yesterday a contributor for fox news says he was attacked by union supporters who were unhappy about the new legislation. >> [ bleep ]. >> you just assaulted me. >> that's terrible. steven crowder of fox news says he was trying to prevent protesters from tearing down the americans for prosperity tent as people were trapped inside. he posted photos on twitter of himself claiming he suffered a chipped tooth and a small cut to his forehead. >> there are a lot of videos coming out. that was pretty rough stuff. >> yeah, that was rough. >> really rough stuff.

>> the interesting thing about governor snyder, he early on in his tenure, said he didn't want to go down this route. he watched what happened in wisconsin. it's interesting to watch his transformati transformation. i guess he explained it through the fact that he's for economic development and choice. and then to watch the videos, and i think we'll see, unfortunately, more of this going forward. >> why is that? i don't understand the video, the punching. >> i'm not justifying it. when people feel threatened economically, i think people -- >> no, that doesn't justify people punching people because they feel threatened economically. >> joe, i'm not trying to justify it. i'm saying unfortunately -- >> you know, conservatives go around punching people like that, it would have been the lead of any newscast last night. every newscast in america. >> that's inexcusable. i don't disagree with that. >> it is inexcusable. i just wonder about the double standard. tearing down tents, punching people. really, i don't understand. mike, can you explain this stuff for me?

i believe i've said it on the show time and time again, unions, after world war ii, helped create strong, vibrant middle class. >> yeah. >> we talked to steve rattner about jobs coming back to america at 14, 15, $16 an hour. we don't celebrate that. i'm glad they're here instead of china, but heck. if we had an economy that would support $30-an-hour jobs, i'd be for that. better than a ceo. you know, destroying a company and then getting a $200 million payout. but that said, what is wrong with a state allowing an american to work where he or she wants to work without having to be compelled to pay union dues? >> well, this state, michigan, was such a part of the core of unionism in this country, the foundation of the united automobile workers which at one point had over 1 million workers in its enrollment is now down to

roughly maybe 350,000 workers. the united automobile workers, everybody can own a car in america. the history of unionism has been inextricably linked to the growth of the middle class, as you know, over the last 60 years of american history. the right-to-work legislation that has passed now in 24 states, i don't think you can dem demonstrably prove that it leads to higher wages, that it leads to marginally -- >> but what's wrong with giving people the freedom to work where they want to work? >> there's nothing wrong with it. >> if i want to work in a shop and not pay a union i disagree with, shouldn't that be my right? >> it is your right, joe. >> no, it's not my right if it's not a right-to-work state. >> i understand that. i understand that. if it's not a right-to-work state. but the problem is that the unions, having felt threatened over the last 20 or 25 years, have taken a stand against right-to-work legislation because why? they lose union dues. they have used the union dues

over the course of 40 or 50 years. you know why. one of the big instances of use of union dues -- >> to elect democrats. >> yes. so they're confronted by a republican governor, senate and house. >> i need somebody to explain to me because i know there are a lot of hardworking union people out there that might think i'm anti-union. i'm not. as i said, unions built the middle class of america. and if i had to choose between a ceo making lots of money and the money getting spread around in a free market system, i'll take the one getting spread around. anti-union, is somebody anti-union for saying harold ford, i'll ask you, i should be able to work where i want to work and pay union dues if i want to pay union dues. is that a demonstrably anti-union position or supporting freedom? >> i think it's supporting

freedom. here's another side. unions have played a big role of people having their rights protected, as you well know, to ensure that safety standards are -- >> okay, but that's not answering my question, harold. >> union dues are used for that purpose also. >> but you can't take that money from me if i don't want to give it to you. >> this is all about -- but this is about political purposes. political purposes. so there's a broad set of reasons that these dollars are used for. >> you're still taking it from my pocket and i don't want to give it. >> we're making your workplace better. we're ensuring that you are not only protected -- >> can i decide whether my workplace is better if i choose to go to a workplace? >> well, you choose, joe, after being granted the right, not to throw in union dues to the larger employee contribution, would you choose not to take the pay raise that the union negotiates for you three years from now? >> that's the argument against it. a free rider problem so that you benefit from the fight that the union made. >> it's almost like the health

care debate with emergency rooms and so forth. >> in other words, you didn't put any money in, you're getting the higher wage and the benefits the guys who paid the money are receiving, you're still getting them, but you didn't pay for them. it's a free rider system. >> i mean, there are closed shops, there are open shops, right? that decision can be made there, correct? >> yeah. i think. >> if i'm a union guy or woman, i'd say, okay, well, let's negotiate for union members. >> yeah. >> and union members will be put on a different -- put in a different category, and we'll give them training, higher skills, and they get the pay raise and the nonunion people don't get the pay raise. >> i think your question's legitimate if -- especially if the unions aren't being effective in making the pay raises good, in making the workplace better. and i think that's a very good question today in terms of how well people are being paid. >> and i think, by the way,

unions pay -- play an absolutely critical role, especially in an era where the rich are getting richer. the poor are getting poorer. ceo salaries have exploded over the past 25 years in a grotesque manner. >> so how well are they doing? >> unfortunately, though, union leverage is being stripped away by globalization, by an i.t. revolution, by outsourcing that certainly does -- >> but you asked the fundamental question earlier, and mike, one of you may have asked it, right-to-work states have, because governor snyder argued that this is an economic development and job development question, in right-to-work states, are there higher salaries, higher wages, more health care, a higher percentage of people living in the middle class who work in these companies. >> dude, dude, we're talking about michigan. >> well, no. >> we're talking about michigan. you want to see how these laws worked? look at michigan. look at --

>> but there were a number of forces at work. >> look at rhode island. look where unions have been the strongest. look at the shuttered factories. i'm not being anti-union here. i'm pro-union. i want factories in connecticut, in rhode island, in massachusetts, across new england reopened. but the jobs from overseas, they're not going there. they're not going there because of work force rules that i think even trump told me were outdated and outmoded. >> is our education system outdated? >> no. >> our union advocacy, is that outdated, how they go about fighting for it? i don't know. that question was put on the table. whether factories are shut, that means jobs have left. if you look at wages enjoyed by workers in right-to-work states, i think it should be put on the table. where do they fare? i have not done the analysis so it's hard to say. >> it's a question, though, willie, whether you want the job

or not. >> right. >> i asked bob riley, i've said this 1,000 times, it seems extraordinarily important if you're a union member in the northeast, and like me, you want your factories running again. i asked bob riley, i don't understand, why did mercedes go to tuscaloosa county, alabama, instead of filling up the factories in connecticut? 15 minutes away from yale. or in rhode island. 20 minutes away from brown. i mean, right by some of the most highly trained, brilliant minds in the world. that's easy. the work force rules are so insane there, there's no way that mercedes or bmw or airbus would ever dream of going to those states. do you want the jobs or do you not want the jobs? >> and that plays out all over the south in harold's home state of tennessee, auto plant comes back, you get a bunch of jobs but at a very low wage. so the question is do you want to lower ourselves to the global standard of wages so that you have many more jobs -- >> that's a better option. >> that question has to be

answered -- >> stronger middle class in union states. >> that's the question that has to be answered, what willie put out. i think there are other factors. >> rhetoric inside the capitol building was also heated. before the bill passed, democratic state representative douglas geist painted the repercussions in stark terms. >> we're going to pass something that will undo 100 years of labor relations. and there will be blood. there will be repercussions. we will relive the battle of the overpass. >> there will be blood. >> michigan house democrats twitter account even tweeted the comments later in the day. let me be clear, i do not want to see history repeated. my caucus and i stand against the use of violence and do not condone its use. we condemn violence, the destruction of property and all other illegal activity in the strongest possible terms. >> which happened outside the capitol after he made those

statements. >> yeah. >> destruction of property. violence. >> of this legislation and opponents to stand by me in my call for nonviolence. >> union leaders talking about civil war. >> there will be -- okay. >> not helping the cause. >> it's a really fascinating and potentially disturbing discussion we've been asking. >> the union strength and union membership in this country over the last 30 years is a big story. >> yeah. >> you know what, though? i mean, it's the same thing. we're talking about unions. the unions have the same problems republicans have. they're living in a different era. there needs to be a new generation of union leadership that understands the realities that say you know what we're going to do? we don't have to choose between high paying jobs and low paying jobs. let's chart a middle course. let's become partners with these companies that are coming over here. let's give -- that's how you do it. you give them offers they can't refuse. but the republican party is stuck in 1984, and unions are stuck in 1964.

both institutions need to wake up and realize it's the 21st century. you know what? punching people out that you disagree with. >> for mowing them down. >> that only -- >> it's criminal. >> -- only makes your cause more loathed. unions have to reform themselves. >> i would agree. >> quick answer to your question, harold, and according to "the wall street journal," the average salary for employee s in right-to-work states, a couple years ago the last time they measured it, $373 per week, 10% less than in states that did not have right-to-work legislation. but these states vary in living conditions. i don't know that it means much. >> mika, for your health book, your eating book, we talked about that -- talking about states and we talk about new england who's been gutted, mike. you've seen it over the course

of the past 25 years. but i was stunned. you know, the unhealthiest states in america on this survey, all in the deep south. all the healthiest states. all in new england. vermont, new hampshire, connecticut, massachusetts. >> except for my house. >> except for your house. >> major cities that have people moving around, too, as well. coming up, michigan governor rick snyder will join us and "new york times" columnist thomas friedman, richard wolffe and hollywood producer harvey weinstein. up next, mike allen is here with us in new york. with the top stories in the "politico playbook." but first, is it phil cabins? i like that. >> phil. >> bill karins. he is the best with a check on the forecast. bill. >> good wednesday morning, everyone. not a lot of big weather headlines out there going to cause you problems today. just a few interesting side notes. let's get to the new england

area first. a little colder this morning than yesterday. so definitely warmer clothes and the winter gear, especially north of i-95. it's going to be a beautiful winter afternoon, though. temperatures are going to be in the mid to upper 40s in the big cities. upper 30s in the burbs with no snow on the ground, pretty nice for this time of year. d.c., what a nice period to get all your errands done for the holidays. temperatures into the low 50s by the weekend. no complaints anywhere. northeast or mid-atlantic the next five days. the southeast, a little different story. we got some rain this morning. i-95 south of south carolina into charleston, all the way through savannah, you will go into some rain along with our friends in southern portions of georgia. and that's where the wet weather will be today. rainy, cloudy and cool along the southeast coast. maybe a few thunderstorms in florida. the middle of the country looking a lot better and starting to warm up after your big snowy past weekend. anyone going to the west coast may be surprised for a little bit of rain in even los angeles today. it will be very light. but even by their standards, anything is a big deal. we leave you with a beautiful clear, crisp, cool shot of the

christmas tree in rockefeller plaza. have a great wednesday morning, everyone. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

of washington about the future of medicare and social security. anncr: but you deserve straight talk about the options on the... table and what they mean for you and your family. ancr: aarp is cutting through all the political spin. because for our 37 million members, only one word counts. get the facts at earnedasay.org. let's keep medicare... and social security strong for generations to come. sure. cake or pie? pie. apple or cherry? cherry. oil or cream? oil or cream? cream. ♪ [ male announcer ] the sound of reddi-wip is the sound of joy.

that makes watching tv even better. if your tv were a hot dog, zeebox would be some sort of fancy, french mustard. just like adding fancy mustard to a hotdog makes you go "woah!," zeebox adds video, info, and playalongs

to spice up your favorite shows. download zeebox free and say "woah" every time you watch tv. oh, it's time to take a look at the "morning papers," shall we? >> yes. >> 27 past the hour. "the new york times." in a major diplomatic shift for the united states, the obama administration his now formally recognizing syrian rebels in an effort to end assad's regime. the u.s. doesn't plan to provide arms to the rebels. and from our parade of papers, "the dallas morning news." north korea has defied international warnings, firing another long-range rocket. the second such launch under new leader kim jong-un. korean state tv claims the

launch was successful and that the rocket delivered a, quote, peaceful satellite into orbit. this is a big morning now. >> it is. he's here. >> he's here in the flesh in new york city in the studio. >> 12-12-12. happy 12-12-12. >> top 12 reasons, something. >> willie and i since 11-11-11 -- >> i was watching you. >> and we're, like, on the holiday inn over on 57th. we're going to be ready when it's 12-12-12 because that's going to be a special day. we'll make a top 12 list of the things a man should do to -- >> and we want to get this right. >> we're going to get it right. >> because we were so wrong about y2k. >> we really were. >> the millennium. >> we really were. you know what? let's not kill hamlet in the first act. we're going to give you our special top 12 list. i think it may bring a tear to your eye. let's do "politico" first.

>> mike allen sitting patiently, chief white house correspondent. >> by the way, it's alex corson's anniversary today. happy anniversary, alex. >> i did it so i could remember the date. >> he finds the button now. >> i've got the button. >> remember when chris licht came out wearing a bow on his birthday? these two guys are so different. corson, licht. >> mike, good morning. i'm sorry about all this. >> 89 years to 01-01-01. >> yes! that's number four on our list. >> 89 years till we have this again. 01-01-01. 89 years. >> you're right. >> only mike. >> thank you, mike. >> i've got to think through this. let's get to the "politico playbook." defense cuts have been a bit of a sticking point. we don't talk about them much. it's been all about taxes. you say some republicans now open to looking at trimming the defense budget. >> well, they are. and this is another part of this republican reboot we're seeing just in the last week.

three big issues where the republican party is changing before our eyes. immigration, they want to talk about president obama about it, work with him on it, gay marriage. the house leaders who asked for one of the supreme court cases, silent since the court took it. now defense cuts. more and more republicans are saying that they're willing to talk about it. >> good. >> saying it junt cuts their credibility on other spending issues. >> good. >> it's the pentagon. >> there is so much waste in the pentagon. it's one of the few bureaucracies you can't audit. it is impossible. whether you're talking to peter peterson, dave walker, they tell you, you can't audit the pentagon. it is impossible. >> and yet there are some republicans you say who are willing to go out on a ledge and say it's time to look at this. and what are the costs of doing that politically? >> well, they are, and part of it is the changing times. it's not the cold war anymore. it's these younger members who are coming up. also to be consistent, you have members saying why are we opposing the sequester?

why are we panicked that these spending cuts might take place? this is what we want. so that's another fight that's in the conference. are they going to be totally consistent on spending, or are they going to pick and choose? >> you've been relatively optimistic that a deal will get done. we've got, what, three weeksish. what do you feel this morning? >> 19 days in the hall right before the congressman gave the answer. go ahead. what do you have in the poll? >> i think if a deal is not put in place by this weekend, it's going to be hard to put one together. i think this week is critical. and come monday next week, we'll have something. >> i bet they'll have half a deal and they'll agree to put things off together. how boring. >> did i hear this right? the president came out. i hope i didn't miss this. my top 12 list. the president agreed to go to $1.4 trillion on taxes. >> but that's not agreeing to anything. that makes no difference. >> he was 1-6. he was 1-4 if boehner goes from

8-1. >> he wants the corporate cut as a part or overhaul of business taxes as part of the deal. >> yeah. >> which means they're listening to business leaders. >> the parts of a deal -- and so i'm still sticking with december 23rd. >> no, you're back at 20. you went to 30 at one point. >> 10:00 p.m. i think we agree that they are going to look so silly -- >> i was on the show. i remember these things. >> they are going to look so silly if they have the gist of an agreement and have to bring everyone back, members, aides, police, the snack bar workers to vote. we picked up on something else. another reason an incentive -- >> i think snack bar workers better get ready. they're going to come back. >> it also may mean the president doesn't go to hawaii. the president may not go to hawaii -- >> come on. >> oh, stop it right now. >> there's no way. he's got to go to hawaii.

it's his home! he was born there whether trump believes it or not. >> majority leader reid says he doesn't believe there will be a deal by christmas. >> partly because of the mechanics. another incentive, we're told if the deal stretches out, if there's no deal, if they're trying to fight over the fiscal cliff in january, senate democrats will be less eager to take on susan rice as the secretary of state nominee. they've said the president would win that fight. they don't want to worry about the massachusetts seat. but if they have all this stuff swap into january. >> a related issue -- >> no, i have a feeling this is not going to be related at all. >> very related. willie, what do you think the life expectancy is in new york city? >> male or female or just overall? >> anybody. what would you think? >> i'll say 81. >> it's 81. >> is it really? >> howard wolfson just tweeted -- >> i made that up. >> move to new york city. it is a remarkable thing. >> thanks. >> that gotham is -- you live

longer here than you do on average in the rest of the country. 81. >> i pulled that out of thin air. i figured it was slightly higher than the national average. >> it's not 81. it's 80.9 years. i'm a politician, though. i round up. i gave you that. you live, in new york city, if you live here, till you're 87, on average. >> there it is. >> it's going to be 100. >> coming up -- that was useless. >> it wasn't useless. >> no smoking in public places. >> 01-01-01. >> there you go. >> wow. the battle for new york. the sequel. carmelo anthony was on fire last night as the knicks were looking for payback in brooklyn against the nets. those highlights next in sports. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso.

i just finished a bowl of your new light chicken pot pie soup and it's so rich and creamy... is it really 100 calories? let me put you on webcan... ...lean roasted chicken... and a creamy broth mmm i can still see you. [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup.

share "not even close." share "you owe me..." share "just right." the share everything plan. sharable data across 10 devices with unlimited talk and text. get a droid razr m by motorola for $49.99. military families face, we understand. at usaa, we know military life is different. we've been there. that's why every bit of financial advice we offer is geared specifically to current and former military members and their families. [ laughs ] dad! dad! [ applause ] ♪

[ male announcer ] life brings obstacles. usaa brings advice. call or visit us online. we're ready to help. for thos...this...ions of doing this... ...and this, dancing in their heads... ...we have these. home depot gift cards. give the gift of doing, in-store or online.

now to sports. the knicks with the best record in the east traveling -- how do you figure they got there? the bridge? over to brooklyn to take on the nets. we pick up with the game tied at 93-93, two minutes to go. anthony drives into the paint, hits a turnaround jumper here. that gives the knicks the lead. carmelo had 45 points last night. less than 30 seconds to go, tie game. raymond felton kicks it on the

old man, jason kidd, with 24 seconds left. a three and the foul. 39-year-old, the former net comes up with the huge clutch shot. final seconds, nets still down three. gerald wallace launches a three to tie. he misses it. deron williams, one more chance. clangs that one. the knicks overcome a 17-point first-quarter deficit. looked like this was going to be a blowout. but the knicks come all the way back. playoff atmosphere. they win 100-97. the knicks are now 16-5. the nets fall to 11-9 and have lost 5 straight games. that rivalry is great. it's only been twice, but two great games. >> you've got the lakers next. what's up with the lakers? >> i don't know. i don't know. they don't look too good right now. they're trying to get on track against the cavaliers in cleveland. the cavs came into the season, this game, with only four wins. third quarter, kobe pulls the lakers within three. the jumper from the baseline. he had 42. but in the fourth, kyrie irving.

how good is this kid? buries the three. gives the cavs a seven-point lead. they win 100-94. the lakers now have lost 8 of their last 11 games. they've been terrible when kobe, by the way, has scored 30 points or more with a record of 1-10. they're 8-3 when he's held under 30 points. maybe the one-man show thing, not working for the lakers. baseball now. some red sox fans. >> youk! >> just regaining consciousness today after learning that kevin youkilis will wear the yankee pinstripes in 2013. wow! the 33-year-old fenway favorite wasn't really the fenway favorite, i don't know. you've disputed that a little, mike. traded to the white sox last season signed a one-year, $12 million deal with the yankees. will likely start at third base until a-rod recovers from hip surgery and maybe after a-rod recovers from hip surgery.

youkilis joins wade boggs in the fraternity. >> terrible. >> and louie t. you like this pickup? youk for one year? >> is he worth $12 million? >> no, but that's the market now, $12 million for a part-time third baseman. >> wow! >> 75% of the yankees will be in assisted living by july 4th. >> i wish i could argue with that. it's true. >> that's ridiculous. >> that left side of the infield is a bit hobbled at the moment. >> let me ask you guys something. phil griffin, president of this network, is livid that the mets are talking about re-signing r.a. dickey. but he said, listen. he's the one guy we can get to rebuild the team. we had him last year and we were terrible. >> phil is wrong. you're not going to get two prospects for a 38-year-old. it's not going to happen. it is not going to happen. >> he won the cy young. you're not going to get premium prospects for a cy young in >> not at his age and not because he throws a knuckleball. you don't know what's going to

happen with it. >> some people say it's a fluke and that next year he could be 2-20. >> he's 38 and you just can't depend on it the way you can depend on a front-line pitcher. we're going to be right back -- >> you know who's not a fluke -- >> not at all. former dnc chair governor howard dean, he's going to weigh in on michigan when we talk "mika's must-read opinion pages." keep it on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] where do you turn for legal matters?

maybe you want to incorporate a business. or protect your family with a will or living trust. and you'd like the help of an attorney. at legalzoom a legal plan attorney is available in most states with every personalized document to answer questions. get started at legalzoom.com today. and now you're protected. get started at legalzoom.com today. have led to an increase intands clinical depression. drug and alcohol abuse is up.

and those dealing with grief don't have access to the professional help they need. when you see these issues, do you want to walk away or step up? with a degree in the field of counseling or psychology from capella university, you'll have the knowledge to make a difference in the lives of others. let's get started at capella.edu you won't take our future. aids affects us all. even babies. chevron is working to stop mother-to-child transmission. our employees and their families are part of the fight. and we're winning. at chevron nigeria, we haven't had a reported case in 12 years. aids is strong. aids is strong. but we are stronger. and aids... ♪ aids is going to lose. aids is going to lose. ♪ darrell hasn't been able to visit his mom back east in a long time. [ mom ] things are sometimes a little tight. i wasn't able to go to the wedding.

[ emily jo ] since darrell couldn't get home, we decided to bring home to him and then just gave him a little bit of help finding his way. ♪ [ laughs ] [ applause ] i love you. i love you. [ male announcer ] get together at the rekindle share event. buy one holiday drink, get one free this thursday through sunday. i get congested. but now, with zyrtec-d®, i have the proven allergy relief of zyrtec®, plus a powerful decongestant. zyrtec-d® lets me breath freer, so i can love the air. [ male announcer ] zyrtec-d®. behind the pharmacy counter. no prescription needed. here with us now, former governor of vermont and former chairman of the democratic national committee, howard dean joining the table this morning. good to have you. >> can we get to the must-reads in one second? >> sure. >> i've got a quick question for

howard here. howard, we were making your blood boil when we were talking about the union story. >> really? >> help us out here. there has to be a middle ground because if there's not, it's bad news for unions because, obviously, right-to-work is spreading even across michigan. so if i say to you your union shouldn't have a right to compel me to write a check, it's about my freedom to choose, you could then say to me, yeah, but you know what? i'm negotiating with management. and you're going to get a free ride off of all the hard work and sweat. >> right. >> what is the middle ground there? >> there isn't a middle ground. i think for me right-to-work isn't to be anti-union. i actually think that hurt obama -- excuse me, that hurt romney in ohio. all the supposed the white, blue-collar workers who weren't going to support obama. a lot of them in ohio did support him. they did exactly this and then it was reversed on the ballot by a public vote a year later.

people didn't forget that. here's the problem. the problem is the free rider problem. in all right-to-work states, if you and i are both working for the same employer and i'm getting a pretty good wage because it's a union job -- >> right. >> -- and you're not paying any dues, you get the same benefits everybody else does. that's not fair. >> is there a way to have two different pay scales, a union and a nonunion pay scales? >> practically there isn't. >> because i said it was un-american for a union to compel me to pay union dues if i didn't want to. i think it's also un-american for me to freeload off of you if you're a union leader who's paying dues every month. i shouldn't gain that benefit from you. can you have two different pay scales, a union pay scale and a nonunion pay scale? >> in theory you could but it would totally demoralize and disrupt the work force. how would you like to do the same job as somebody next door. >> if i made that choice to not join a union, that was my choice

and i would have to suffer those consequences. >> i know that's very libertarian and sounds terrific and very practical and all that. >> it sounds kind of fair. it sounds like personal responsibility. >> i think most people would say that was compelling people to join a union as well. i know what you're trying to do. if you wanted to do it, what you really need is campaign finance reform. if you don't want big corporations and unions and so forth to be influencing politics on your behalf because you're a republican and most of the unions are democrats, then get rid of donations to campaigns. and that solves the whole problem. >> from unions and corporations. >> right. but i do think if you're going to join a company that's unionized and get a whole lot better -- as barnicle said, 10, 15, 20% more money, then you really should be paying dues to that union. this is a direct attack on unions. and you're right. the history of america, in the '50s and '60s when the unions were strongest is when american workers were doing better. i actually believe that making unions stronger helps this terrible divide that we have between the rich and the poor. >> it's what we talked about

before. the rich are getting richer, poor are getting poorer, ceos are getting larger wages, workers are getting smaller wages. do you agree that the unions -- i say like the republican party, they have to reform or they're going to die. >> they are reforming. it's slow. the uaw actually did a fantastic job helping the american automobile industry come back on its feet. they gave in a lot of concessions. i believe the american federation of teachers, i know we differ on this, contributes a lot to education reform. is it as fast as we'd like? no. >> randy's working with chris christie right now. i think in newark, that's a great son. willie, in your home state? >> they're running a charter school in east new york. they've got three of them in the city. >> it has been good in that case to see the government and the union work together. i do want to ask you one question, and not rhetorically. do you believe in a place like spring hill, tennessee, where there's a new volkswagen plant, the jobs came back but at a low wage, some of them at $12 an hour. do you think that's a good thing

where they wouldn't be there even though it's a low wage? >> it's better than having the jobs in china, but those kinds of jobs eventually mean we can't have the kind of standard of living we had in this country. you know, you're not going to turn down a plant that's bringing jobs in, but, you know, what about the environmental laws? who's going to protect workers against not only the wage stuff but what about all the chemicals people get exposed to and these kinds of things in these kinds of industries? these are complicated, tough issues. i think throwing the unions under the bus is very stupid. >> harold meyerson in "the washington post." no fair wage for you. what conservatives haven't acknowledged and what even most liberal commentators fail to appreciate is how central the collapse of collective bargaining is to american workers' inability to win themselves a raise. yes, globalizing and mechanizing jobs has cut into the livelihoods of millions of u.s. workers, but that's far from the whole story. an exhaustive study by economist

lonnie k.stevans of hofstra found that states that have enacted such laws reported no increase in start-ups or rates. wages and personal income are lower in those states than in those without such laws, he conclud concluded, though propry tors' incomes are higher. >> that's the problem. that's the issue. that is the problem. >> and perhaps that was -- i'd love to hear the governor answer that question because he argued, governor snyder, he argued in the clip that you showed that this is about increasing business start-ups, increasing economic development of business activity in michigan. and in the face of those numbers, and mike quoted some stats -- barnicle did -- how do you reconcile those comments? it would be interesting to hear him walk through that. >> that's exactly the problem. this is actually going to make mish misch a po michigan a poorer state, not a state without jobs. >> wouldn't that help make the process and the function of what

unions do cleaner? >> well, yeah. of course, the problem is now that the corporations are doing five times as much. but yeah, i think citizens -- we've talked on this show a lot -- i think citizens united is a disaster for the country. you know, this is -- what we've got to do is fix the citizens united problem, and then this argument that joe has, which is not a ridiculous argument, goes away. >> how kind of you. by the way, this is the howard dean says i agree with joe. it's not a completely ridiculous argument brought up by a jackass. >> it's not comical. >> this time. >> this time. yeah. >> governor -- i think governor dean made the point, this seems to me -- and the point you're raising, joe -- is this a finance campaign problem they're trying to fix by eltding union rights? >> no. >> this is what they argue. >> that's what they claim. >> i'm agreeing. they should have done a campaign finance overhaul. >> they somehow think if they lower working people's wages, that's going to be good for

business. it's stupid and it's really bad for america and it's exactly what's undercutting our nation. >> limiting workers' rights. >> this is about the people who run the companies making more money at the expense of the working people, and that's the mistake. as long as we have that mentality in the united states of america, we're going to continue on the path we're on. >> i agree with you. >> all right, howard. thank you so much for being here. by the way, can we get a close-up of howard's shirt? >> my proud -- imported from detroit. >> it's solidarity, my man. >> chrysler. a union employer. they do all right. >> i tell you what. what an exciting story. obviously what's happening with gm. what's happening with chrysler. what's happening with ford. >> yep. >> i mean, these are companies that are fighting back. >> coming back. >> and it is inspiring. >> they need strong unions. >> let's do a town hall meeting. >> let's do it. that was fun. we did that in new jersey on education. let's do it. >> let's go to detroit and we can talk about this, also how to revive detroit. >> michigan, you did a show for the big detroit regional chamber

of commerce. >> look forward to that. >> we're all going to be there. >> in vermont, you don't need, because of the icy conditions there, a ford raptor, do you? >> oh, you need a raptor. >> i have a hybrid escape. >> raptor's a lot like the escape. >> except it has horrific gas mileage. the raptor. >> oh, the raptor. >> four miles to the gallon. >> escape gets good mileage. >> 31 in the summertime. it's fantastic. >> impressive. still ahead, political analyst richard wolffe. also the president of the university of pennsylvania and author amy guttmann explains why the permanent campaign is getting in the way of compromise in washington. more "morning joe" when we come back. [ man ] ring ring... progresso this reduced sodium soup says it may help lower cholesterol, how does it work? you just have to eat it as part of your heart healthy diet. step 1. eat the soup. all those veggies and beans,

that's what may help lower your cholesterol and -- well that's easy [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup.

up next, "new york times'" columnist thomas friedman and carl bernstein and political analyst richard wolffe join the table. keep it right here on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] this is steve. he loves risk.

but whether he's climbing everest, scuba diving the great barrier reef with sharks, or jumping into the market, he goes with people he trusts, which is why he trades with a company that doesn't nickel and dime him with hidden fees. so he can worry about other things, like what the market is doing and being ready, no matter what happens, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense, from td ameritrade. [ male announcer ] marie callender's puts everything you've grown to love about sunday dinner into each of her pot pies. tender white meat chicken and vegetables in a crust made from scratch. marie callender's. it's time to savor.

can i still ship a gift in time for christmas? yeah, sure you can. great. where's your gift? uh... whew. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. ship fedex express by december 22nd for christmas delivery.

pro-union protesters are swarming the michigan capitol building in lansing. >> hey hey oh oh right-to-work has got to go! >> your state is disgusting! >> dude, you're from michigan, detroit, 8 mile. you've got to come up with better rhymes than -- busting disgusting! if you want to win the climactic rap battle, you've got to put some effort into it. you have one job at one factory. when you seize every benefit you could, yo ♪ ♪ our palms are sweaty ♪ knees weak arms heavy

♪ working in a factory like chevy like the volt snoelts you plug it in and you win ecologically because if it was an actual race you would not actually you've got to dues correct for the union or robots are going to come and take away our jobs or to the chinese kids with the tiny hands the work will go ♪ ♪ this opportunity comes once in a lifetime, yo ♪ welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at times square in new york city. the sun has yet to come up. everybody neats to wake up, though. it's time to wake up, mike barnicle. >> okay. >> still with us. joining us from washington, "new york times" columnist tom friedman. and here on set, msnbc political analyst and vice president and executive editor of msnbc.com, richard wolffe and carl bernstein. good to have you all on board today. >> i'd love to start with tom friedman. tom, we're obviously talking about michigan, talking about the protests, between the

republican governor and the unions organized labor. and it seems to me that unions, along with the republican party, seem to be stuck in a different era. how would you, as a guy that has been obsessing on the impact of globalization on the u.s. economy, what recommendations would you have for unions to be more competitive in the 21st century? >> look, this is a really hard problem, joe. and i don't think there's a simple answer to it. let me answer you with a story. you know, i park at reagan national airport here, you know, for the last 20 years i've lived in washington. and every time i park there, when you exited, there were these -- there were six, i believe, exit booths. and they were each manned or womaned by these ethiopian women. i think it was an ethiopian

company that owned the company. a couple weeks i went to exit to pay. i noticed there was one booth that said cash. there was one ethiopian woman in it. the other five booths had been converted into automatic exits. i was doing the math as a left. i thought, that's probably three shifts a day, 16 ethiopian american women who have just lost their jobs. and somebody else probably -- somebody else insuredly has gotten new jobs, one designing the software for that system which probably was done collaboratively between someone in america and somebody in india, and there's surely somebody else in the back room manning the computer system that is operating the whole exit operation. so what is the story here is that this is a relentless process. if horses could have voted, there never would have been cars. technology is constantly churning old jobs and turning them into new ones. but there's one bottom line we know, joe, and that's this. every good new job requires more education and more skill. the basis of the american middle

class for the last 50 years, or the 50 years after world war ii was something called the high-wage middle-skilled job. but the relentless march of globalization and technology is really eliminating that. now there's only a high-wage, high-skilled job. and there's no answer other than certainly more education. i don't know what else we need. everyone's going to have to upgrade their skills. >> what does that mean for the future not only of unions but the future of the strong, vibrant middle class where people get living wages, they get health care, they get workplace safety. it seems like a bleak picture. >> i worry about this. there's no question about it, joe. i can just tell you, you think about a columnist for "the new york times," very easy for you to say. what do you care? how has my job changed? i just came from a long trip, russia, syria, israel, egypt. here's what happens in what i call a hyperconnected world when

you're a columnist now. when i started, i was a reporter in beirut in 1982. all i wanted to do was tell americans something they didn't know from beirut, okay? well, that was pretty easy because, you know, there was no cnn back then. you couldn't really follow the news. there were no bloggers. now when i go abroad to write a column, i just wrote from egypt this morning, what's in my head is i'm not looking to tell just americans something they don't know about egypt, still pretty easy. what i aspire to now is actually to tell egyptians something they don't know about their own country. in other words, my job has changed because i know i have readers there. i have bloggers there. i'm so connected to that audience that it isn't enough for me anymore in the old days just to tell people in chicago something new about egypt. i've now got to tell people in egypt something new about egypt if i want to keep my job. >> exactly. and we ask these questions and make these points because of what happened, of course, in michigan. controversial right-to-work measures will soon be the law of

the land there. republican governor rick snyder signed the measures yesterday despite widespread protests by labor unions at the state capitol. the law will make it illegal to require an employee to pay union dues as a condition of their employment. but governor snyder says it was the unions who started this fight in the first place by trying to add collective bargaining rights in the state's constitution. michigan has the fifth highest percentage of unionized workers at more than 17%, and it's hardly alone in passing right-to-work laws. 23 other states have already done the same. >> carl? >> we have a national problem, and that is how to not become a p plutocracy. and we're well on our way. and unions help keep us from being a plutocracy. we now we have less than 10% of the labor force that is unionized. at the same time, we need more people who are protected and can learn these new trades and jobs

that tom friedman is talking about. and we are in an era, for the first time, these people are not unionized, and therefore the gap between the rich, the middle class and the poor is widening. we have a national difficulty that we must address legislatively, culturally, and that is how not to be this plutocratic train that's driving us right now. >> richard, you look at globalization, what's happened since the late 1970s when china started globalizing. you look at the i.t. revolution and what impact it's had since the early 1990s. we've got a lot of forces that are not only making the rich richer and the poor poorer in america but doing the same in industrialized economies across the world. >> right. >> what do we do? >> well, it's not just a challenge for people who are struggling to make a living wage. it's a challenge for these big corporations that are racking up these big profits, too.

the people who buy the gm products are the uaw workers. you need a strong middle class to be strong consumers. and so it is actually in everyone's interest that we have a strong middle class with a healthy disposable income. the challenge on the skills side, when you think about what can we all do together is education. quite clearly. when tom was talking about skills, we were talking about how to compete, how to be innovative, there are opportunities for this country to innovate. there always have been. this country is a tremendous source of innovation, but it doesn't come from anything but a strong education system. and that means these governors also have to think about property taxes. you cannot just do it at the federal level. that is a nationwide project. >> mike barnicle? >> tom friedman, in listening to your answer, it occurs to me, is not part of our problem here in the united states, to be rather parochial about it, is the definitions of things that we have about us, infrastructure,

for instance, when we think about infrastructure with regard to politics, people think about bridges, highways, roads, but infrastructure, ought not it to mean to cope with these issues, infrastructure ought not to include the element of kindergarten, of day care, of early childhood education? i used to measure it, tom, when you were in beirut in '82 and '83, i used to measure a child's future, if you don't catch him by the third or fourth grade, you're going to lose him forever. now i think it's down to age 4 or 5, but we don't pay enough to infrastructure in this country. do you agree with that? >> i agree totally. we kind of speak in the language of k-12, but it's really now, you know, "b" through retirement, birth right through life. and the big change that is happening and needs to happen much more quickly, you know, there's a great quota tribed to alvin tofler. that the new literacy today is not reading, riting and

arithmetic. it's actually the ability to learn and relearn. because the chances of whatever you've learned in college, you know, will be outdated so much quicker in this kind of hyperconnected world. and it's really that ability to constantly be upgrading and broo improving your skills that is really going to be the defining thing for holding any or acquiring any good job. and i think that you're absolutely right, mike. if that is the case, then you've got to work backwards, what do we know? we know that kids who are exposed to books early, that are exposed to a large number of vocabulary words early, are going to do better when they start school, they're going to have better outcomes as they move through school. we have to think about just how we develop all of our workers from the very earliest age. we're not having that conversation. >> let's -- there's other types of protests around the world that we're covering as well. we're going to have the governor of michigan on the show later to

continue this conversation. but now to egypt. and tom, in your latest column, you ask the question, "can god save egypt?" and you write, in part, this. "egypt, the anchor of the whole arab world, is embarked on a dangerous descent toward prolonged civil strife, unless a modus vivendi can be found between president morsi of the muslim brotherhood and his growing opposition. if sear ja and egypt both unravel at once, this whole rejune will be destabilized. that's why a billboard on the road to the pyramids said it all: "god save egypt." god is not going to save egypt. it will be saved only if the opposition here respects that the muslim brotherhood won the election fairly, and it will be safed only if morsi respects that elections are not winner-take-all, especially in a society that is still defining its new identity, and stops grabbing authority and starts earning it. otherwise, it will be all fall down." i guess, tom, the question is,

can morsi regain credibility after all that's happened? >> really not clear, mika. you know, i left cairo early yesterday, and that was the biggest question on my mind. one of the questions i asked several egyptian friends there, has president morsi ever seen the movie "invictus" about mandela in south africa and the transition there when his supporters wanted him to change the name of their great rugby team to a more african name. and there's a line in that movie, it's one of my favorite lines, where the mandela character turns to his supporters and says, "no, we're not going to do that." mandela says, "we've to surprise them. we have to surprise them." and what has been totally missing for me from morsi so far is that sense of surprise. he's been playing too much to type. we get in as the muslim brothers, we grab as much power as we can, we consolidate ourselves, et cetera.

i do want to say one thing, in fairness, having spent a lot of time with the muslim brotherhood folks over the last couple days, and that is some things are true even if mohamed morsi believes them. and one of those things is that there are a lot of old regime people around that have been really working to bring him down from the inside. even paranoids have enemies. he's a deeply paranoid guy right now. but he also is facing a lot of internal enemies. the overwhelming sense i had, mika, from being in egypt is how little the people there know each other. they have a blue states/red states problem that makes ours look like a day at the beach. and that's really -- as the lid has come off and you have these less religious brotherhood people and middle and upper class people from cairo and alexandria, these people do not know each other at all. this country really needs to go on a long weekend retreat. >> yeah, i don't think that's going to happen. you know, we saw the same thing,

interestingly enough, in 2009 in iran where you had a lot of people in the cities opposing ahmadinejad, and you had people in more rural areas being far more conservative and supporting ahmadinejad. but carl bernstein, one of morsi's biggest problems right now is we look inward, he is paranoid. people that know him say that he does not -- he does not take advice well. >> he's insular. >> he's very insular. the muslim brotherhood promised that during the revolution that they were not going to take power. they lied. they took power. morsi promised he was going to be open and, of course, he seized power. this man can't get out of his own way. the muslim brotherhood can't get out of their own way. they've actually not only hurt egypt, they've hurt their own cause. >> it's become an anti-democratic movement. what we're seeing, and tom suggested it here for a minute is, that in the united states, in israel, in egypt, these three

great democracies, we are totally divided. our people are divided left, right, religious, nonreligious. it's a similarity in all three cultures, particularly this religious element which skews in terms of our politics just as it does in israel and just as it is in egypt. so we've got universal problems that invoke incredible anger. and how a culture and society deals with this amazing internal anger, we've seen a breakdown of our own political system because of it. it's no wonder that we see it in egypt. and if you go to israel, tom knows this better than anybody, israel is a divided country, very much like we are. with a horrible debate and anger with the two sides. >> yeah. >> mike. >> hey, tom, do we have the discipline and/or the time to allow this to play out in egypt? >> that's a good question, mike.

i actually -- i think president obama's handled this really pretty well. and that is to understand that first of all, they've got to work this out. and anything we say will be and absolutely can be used against us. that is if he comes out in any way, you know, against morsi, he will delegitimize the morsi critics because he'll use it against him and vice versa. we're going to have to, you know, do our best, i think, to build bridges where possible, draw red lines where necessary and try to insulate ourselves from the worst impacts of this crisis. you know, mike, there's a concept in climate change where they speak about we need to manage the unavoidable and avoid the unmanageable. and it's true about the climate, and it's true about the middle east as well. it's one of the reasons i began this column in cairo basically saying, you know, if you look at the mediterranean today up north in europe, you're seeing the european supernational state break apart.

and to the south, you're seeing the arab nation state system break apart. these are two great system. and that tells me one thing. we need to get our act together. we need to be as resilient as possible because the whole world is depending on us. we're one of the last rocks of stability out there. >> thomas friedman thank you so much. we'll be reading your column online at nytimes.com. carl bernstein and richard wolffe, stay with us if you can. next, the man at the center of the union fight in michigan who signed the right-to-work measure into law. governor rick snyder joins us next. why he says it was the unions who started this fight. and a little later, harvey weinstein will be here on set to discuss tonight's big benefit concert for hurricane sandy relief. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. we're at walmart with the simmons family.

how much is your current phone bill? four sixteen seventy six a month! okay, come with me -- we're gonna save you money. with straight talk at walmart, you get unlimited talk, text and data for only $45 a month per phone. would we get the same coverage? same coverage on america's best networks. you saved $146.76 by switching to straight talk. awesome! now you can afford to share your allowance with me. get the season's hottest smartphones like the samsung galaxy s2 and get straight talk with unlimited data for just $45 a month -- from america's gift headquarters. walmart. ♪

[ male announcer ] can a car be built around a state of mind? ♪ announcing the all-new 2013 malibu from chevrolet. ♪ with a remarkable new interior featuring the available chevrolet mylink infotainment system. this is where sophisticated styling begins. and where it ends? that's up to you. it's here -- the greatest malibu ever. ♪

welcome back to "morning joe." just looking on my twitter feed here, "washington post"/abc poll of handling of fiscal cliff negotiations, obama, 47% approve, 46% disapprove. boehner, 24% approve. 54% disapprove. i would say, the republican party continues to have a branding problem. >> there is. >> or a disintegrating problem in washington. >> it is a branding problem that was born of chaos in the primary process that continues. there is a great "politico" article that actually talks about the republican problem with branding. and talks about -- >> it's a great piece. >> have you seen this? >> yeah. >> the republican party has a branding problem. these are researchers that

say -- we asked 22, 23 different topics, whether americans related more to the democratic party or the republican party. 22 of the 23, they appeal more to democrats. >> yeah. >> it is a generalized, massive branding problem over what's happened nationally over the past year. >> except in the south. >> the piece, in part, points out that unlike people who sit around here, most people, normal people out there in america react emotionally to politics when they hear phrases, they react emotionally. does this represent hope? fear? they go with hope. >> there's also some substance to it. that the republican party in washington is taking positions that the democrats have correctly shown to be inimacable. there's a big difference. huge dichbs. >> what a difference between the

federal level and state level where republicans on the state level control 60% of the governors. they have a majority of state senators nationwide. they have a majority of state legislators nationwide. but you get to d.c., and republicans in d.c., richard wolffe, my god. it reminds me of the famous quote of churchill. when winston's right, winston's right. but when he's wrong, my god. one of his friends said that about him. >> it was true. churchill also said that, you know, the definition of success is going from failure to failure without lots of enthusiasm. i think by that measure, republicans are doing really well. >> we're doing great. >> it's not just a branding problem. it's a policy problem. >> right. >> until they start shifting on policies -- look, we're seeing some of this talk come out of some of these smarter republican governors, people like governor jindal talking about education disparities. >> right. >> there are some moves afoot. whether that will take hold, how that translates into real policy as opposed to rhetoric, hey, let's watch it unfold. >> you know, if we only had a republican governor to talk to.

>> oh, you know, here we go. joining us now from lansing, michigan, the republican governor of michigan, governor rick snyder. the issue at hand, the lead story, and that's the right-to-work legislation. you say it's going to lead to more and better jobs for people in the state of michigan. how? >> well, it will. if you look at -- you just need to look to indiana which passed similar legislation back in february. and the track record's clear. they've had a lot of companies come to indiana and making that one of their decisions to look to indiana. in fact, they've had 31 different companies accept offers from the indiana economic development corporation since that time that are accounting for thousands of jobs. so it's clear that companies are now coming to indiana that previously didn't have them on the list. so it will lead to more and better jobs, and that will happen here in michigan as well. but this legislation was primarily about being pro-worker, about giving workers freedom of choice. but the second added benefit is this jobs effect.

>> i'm not sure they're going to appeal that way. >> governor, you had said before you weren't going to bring up this legislation because it was too divisive for the state. but you decided to bring it up anyway. what changed your mind? >> well, what happened, going back to 2009 when i started a campaign, i looked at it and said over 80% of the work force in michigan isn't unionized. so it's not a relevant issue to most michiganders and as a practical matter, we had much more pressing things to take care of. we've done tax reform. we've balanced our budget. we're paying down debt. education reform. a long list of important things that were higher priorities. what happened was this last summer. labor leaders decided to start a ballot initiative to put something on michigan's ballot regarding collective bargaining. and again, i believe in collective bargaining, but they went to a huge overreach to do something in michigan's constitution. and i asked them not to move ahead because i said if you do this, you're going to start a divisive discussion on labor issues that include collective bargaining but also right-to-work. they went ahead with the proposal.

it was called proposal two. it was roundly defeated by our citizens in the election. and when that ended after the election, right-to-work just came more and more up as a very divisive issue from both sides. so the discussion was going on. and since it was getting louder and louder, i thought it best to take a leadership position on it. so you look at the issue. i believe it was the right thing to do. stepped up, moved on and let's get to more pressing issues such as education and training issues. >> richard. >> the auto industry is still a big employer in your state. and the auto industry has done really well in the last several years in spite of what you see as being an obstacle to business, that is having strong unions. how do you square your statement that unions are somehow bad for business with the fate and the thriving nature of the auto industry in your state over the last several years? >> actually, i've never said unions are bad for business. and i don't believe this is actually anti-union. if you look at it, i believe this is pro-worker.

because the way i view it is, workers now have freedom to choose. >> hang on. are you serious? are you serious? this is not anti-unions? at its core, undermines the ability for unions to organize. you can make any argument you like -- >> all right, richard. let's let him answer the question. >> this does not deal with organizing or collective bargaining, this has nothing to do with the relationship between an employer and union. this is about the relationship between unions and workers. and this is about giving workers the freedom to choose, and unions have to be in a position to present a good value proposition. if you look at the history of unions in michigan, we had very strong labor movement here. if you go to the last century, people flocked to join unions because they saw value in that. fast forward to today, shouldn't unions still have to present a value proposition? and if they do, people will join. people will want to be part of a union. and if they don't provide value, people shouldn't be forced to pay for something they don't see any value in. so again, this should make unions more effective in terms

of having to put a value proposition to workers. >> governor, while i made a similar argument earlier that workers shouldn't be compelled to have to pay from their salary to a union with whom they disagree, i would not go so far as to say what you've just said, which is that this helps unions. i mean, it undermines unions' ability to stay vibrant, right? >> it really leaves it up to the union to decide and innovate as to what their value proposition is. i don't view it as pro or anti-union. unions just need to be responsive to people to step up and deliver value and workers should have that choice. they shouldn't be compelled to join something they don't see value in. >> come on. >> governor, if i agree with you, and if i heard your statement that you just made correctly, that this is aimed at employees not having to pay into something that they don't put a value on. so according to the right-to-work legislation now, they can belong to a union, but they don't have to have their

dues extracted from their paycheck because they don't put a value on it. will those workers accept the pay raises that the unions negotiate for them? >> well, again, they're essentially told they have to be in that relationship. it's an exclusive relationship that the unions have with the employer. so they don't have an option with that. >> so that's a rather divisive workplace in the future. >> again, in right-to-work states, you don't see that division. actually, we had good people up here in michigan that came from right-to-work states. and i talked to a number of them. i actually sat with them during a press conference. and when you listen to them, they actually decided to join the union because they saw value. but they really appreciated having the choice. so again, if unions are showing value, people will want to put in dollars to be contributors to something that's giving them value. >> let me ask this. >> dare we? dare we? only if you're sweet. >> i think you should be penalized, carl, because you were sighing -- you were sighing more than al gore in his first

debate with george w. bush. >> you're right. you're right. >> carl, do you have a question for the governor and not a statement? >> yes. >> sure. >> 15 seconds. >> i have a question. >> governor, let's see how this works. >> i have a loaded question. >> we're holding our -- no. >> my loaded question would be, how do you distinguish your position on this from a real question about the welfare of workers in a state that historically unions have had a huge role in and in making michigan a better place? >> that's a great question. governor. >> and political warfare. versus cultural and political warfare. >> if you go back, again, in the last century, in the middle of the century, the unions did a lot of great things. they helped with working conditions, wages, so many great things. but if you come to today, in many respects, unions are a declining percentage of the work force. michigan was just third in

high-tech jobs being created. most of those jobs will not be union jobs. we're seeing high-paying jobs come to michigan without a union. in fact, if you look at our state over the last decade, we've suffered a lot being a not right-to-work in terms of personal income, not just that reason but many reasons. we dropped from 16th from 36th in terms of per capita income. we've started to come back now. i believe giving workers choice, you look at the results in indiana, they have more and better jobs coming to indiana today than they had before, and i think we'll see that same phenomenon in michigan. >> governor rick snyder, we appreciate you coming on. we know you're in the middle of a tough political battle up there, but it's very important for our viewers to hear what's going on on both sides. it's very important for me because, well, i don't like being alone all the time. thanks a lot, governor, for being here. look forward to seeing you soon. it is really a great challenge. it is a great challenge moving forward, especially, you know,

michigan, mike, the state of all states to look at, once the fourth largest city in america, detroit. >> detroit, yeah. >> once the wealthiest city in america. not so long ago. in 1960, i think. and they've been losing jobs overseas in waves. >> the history of the united autoworkers. instrumental in the history of racial, economic and social justice in this country. a million members, dues-paying members, the uaw as recently as 15 or 20 years ago, down to maybe about 350,000. but it's always a positive thing to end on when you see increasing numbers of republicans coming out pro-choice. >> yes. and you know what? i'm always discouraged when you have an increasing number of progressives being anti-choice. >> look at the polls. >> telling workers -- >> i think my head's going to explode. >> we're all sitting on our hands over here right now. >> sitting on your hands? you were grunting and groaning

more than -- >> i'm the son of a union organizer. and at the same time, unions need to reform, but that's not the answer. >> okay. >> cultural warfare. >> it's definitely a sign of the times. >> i don't want to finish this sentence, and groaning more. coming up, can president obama and speaker boehner find room for compromise? our next guest explains how the presidential campaign has undermined the fiscal cliff negotiations. we're back in a moment.

of washington about the future of medicare and social security. anncr: but you deserve straight talk about the options on the... table and what they mean for you and your family. ancr: aarp is cutting through all the political spin.

because for our 37 million members, only one word counts. get the facts at earnedasay.org. let's keep medicare... and social security strong for generations to come. military families face, we understand. at usaa, we know military life is different. we've been there. that's why every bit of financial advice we offer is geared specifically to current and former military members and their families. [ laughs ] dad! dad! [ applause ] ♪ [ male announcer ] life brings obstacles. usaa brings advice. call or visit us online. we're ready to help.

welcome back to "morning joe" on this wednesday morning. still a little chilly. no big storms in sight at least this week. i'll explain in a second. first things first. windchills, a little chilly in the middle of the country with that snow pack on the ground. northern minnesota very cold. good news, just about everyone will have a nice warm-up. the worst weather down in the southeast where you'll be cloudy and cool with anne all the way from north florida, coastal georgia, south carolina and even outer banks of north carolina. all in all, not a bad mid-december wednesday. middle of the nation, sunshine, temperatures a little above average. we're pretty nice in the northeast and mid-atlantic. we do have a little storm moving

down through the west coast of california. very light rain. not a big event. just a little snow in the northern rockies. here's a peek at tomorrow. very similar to today. the southeast clears out. but here's where things get a little more interesting. to get a snowstorm and get a white christmas in new england and mid-atlantic, we need the cold air. well, here we are wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday. that blue line is where the cold air is. so if you're not in that blue line, you're not going to get snow. in other words, much of the lower 48 not expecting any snow over the next couple days. then by tuesday, cold air comes down through the middle of the country. at the same time we may have a storm system. maybe a coastal storm coming up the eastern seaboard. if those who collide, who knows, maybe a week from today we could be talking snow for people in new england. it's the only thing i really have to tease in the days ahead. coming up next, a lesson in compromise. university of pennsylvania president amy gutmanm explains why good campaigning does not make for good governing. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

hey, look! a shooting star! make a wish! i wish we could lie here forever. i wish this test drive was over, so we could head back to the dealership. [ male announcer ] it's practically yours. test drive! but we still need your signature. volkswagen sign then drive is back. and it's never been easier to get a jetta. that's the power of german engineering. get $0 down, $0 due at signing, $0 deposit, and $0 first month's payment on any new volkswagen.

visit vwdealer.com today. [ male announcer ] marie callender's puts everything you've grown to love about sunday dinner into each of her pot pies. tender white meat chicken and vegetables in a crust made from scratch. marie callender's. it's time to savor. that was me... the day i learned i had to start insulin for my type 2 diabetes. me... thinking my only option was the vial and syringe dad used. and me... discovering once-daily levemir® flexpen. flexpen® is prefilled. doesn't need refrigeration for up to 42 days. no drawing from a vial. dial the exact dose. inject by pushing a button. flexpen® is insulin delivery... my way. levemir® (insulin detemir [rdna origin] injection) is a long-acting insulin used to control high blood sugar in adults and children with diabetes and is not recommended to treat diabetic ketoacidosis. do not use levemir® if you are allergic to any of its ingredients. the most common side effect is low blood sugar, which may cause symptoms such as sweating, shakiness, confusion, and headache.

severe low blood sugar can be serious and life threatening. ask your healthcare provider about alcohol use, operating machinery, or driving. other possible side effects include injection site reactions. tell your healthcare provider about all medicines you take and all of your medical conditions. get medical help right away if you experience serious allergic reactions, such as body rash, trouble with breathing, fast heartbeat, or sweating. with flexpen®... say good night to vial and syringe. ask your doctor about levemir® flexpen. covered by 90% of insurance plans, including medicare. find your co-pay at myflexpen.com. monarch of marketing analysis. with the ability to improve roi through seo all by cob. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. i'm going b-i-g. [ male announcer ] good choice business pro. good choice. go national. go like a pro.

i think if we were in charge of the senate and of the administration, that we would have a budget deal by now. >> do you all believe that? >> yes. >> yes. >> and what i find is, with all due deference to our male colleagues, that women's styles tend to be more collaborative. >> i think by nature, we are less confrontational and more collaborative. and having us in the room, and i think, you know, all of us, not only do we want to work in a bipartisan way, we do it. >> exactly. seriously. fiscal cliff, economic meltdown, all not necessary if there were

more women. those were the female members of the 113th congress on why the women in the senate could get the budget deal done. yes, they could. when the new congress is sworn in, there will be a record-breaking 20 female senators in office. and joining us now -- you agree with me, right? >> our world's over, mike. actually, we compromise. >> yeah. after you break everything. >> and the way we compromised was, we decided not to bring donny deutsch on to talk about being a penn grad. >> that's true. that's a black eye on the legacy of the institution. i'm so sorry. >> went to wharton. >> joining us now, the president of the university of pennsylvania, amy gutmann, the co-author of the book "the spirit of compromise: why governing demands it and campaigning undermines it." i wonder if there's no better example than right now. >> yeah. we're in the midst of the perfect storm and the only solution to it is compromise. and for once, compromise isn't a

dirty word in washington these days because they realize that as you saw even business leaders who stand to pay more with tax rate increases, joe, are in favor of them now. and why? because they know it's going to be part of a compromise. >> you say it's not a dirty word anymore. i agree. i just wonder if it still means what it means anymore? because when we get to something, it's not going to be -- i mean, i think probably the president will get what he wants out of it. i think the polls are leaning in his way. >> let me just stop you there. >> they really will get real cuts. >> let me stop you there. the president won't get what he wants out of this. >> i think he will. >> the president will get some of what he wants. house members that got elected by 60% to 80% in their own distinct will get what they want. there will be real compromise. >> there will be. >> you think? >> i think we'll have sooner than later-- and sooner would be a lot better than later -- we'll have a classic compromise. everybody will move in a

direction that they want, and they'll have to sacrifice something to their opponents. the president will sacrifice less than the republicans will because he won the election. but he will have to sacrifice something. he will have to look at his base. this is a time when you're not campaigning. when you're campaigning, you make your base really happy. when you're not campaigning and you're governing, which is the job you're elected to do, then you have to look your base in the face and say, we're going to have to sacrifice something, too. in order to move the country forward. and that's the only way the president will have a great legacy. >> and part of your theory is that campaigning undermines the whole concept of it, which some argue the president has still been doing that. >> do you think, amy, that a large part of the problem is too many people in public life, when they get to congress in washington, let's leave it at washington, they lose their frame of reference. their frame of reference becomes a part of a constant campaign. they campaign every day, raising money every day. their former frame of reference

in an ordinary life was, for instance, buying a house where you'd have to compromise. >> exactly. >> you'd negotiate over the price. i don't want to pay that much. you don't want to sell it for that low? okay, let's meet in the middle. they lose that frame of reference when they get to washington. >> that's actually the theme of our book which is the permanent campaign has distracted people in washington where it's the worst. even worse, as joe has said, in the states. in washington where it's the worst, people -- our politicians are distracted from what it means to govern and what it means to govern is you move the ball forward by giving something to the other side. and they've lost the frame of reference not only of compromise but of respect for the other side. you don't -- ronald reagan didn't love tip o'neill. tip o'neill didn't love ronald reagan, but they knew to govern -- >> they didn't hate each other. >> yeah. i mean, as lincoln said in his first inaugural, although passion may divide us, let it not break the bonds of our affection.

and i would say you don't have to be affectionate or love one another, but the respect that comes out of being a politician in the best sense of the word rather than campaigning all the time, it's kabuki. it's become kabuki. it's political theater. ordinary people think it's crazy. it has become to the point of craziness. yeah. >> let's talk about respect. there are two different types of respect as well. there's personal respect and political respect. tip o'neill did not respect ronald reagan politically. he said some downright ugly things about the man and his ability to run the country. ronald reagan didn't really respect tip o'neill's viewpoints. he said some nasty things about tip o'neill. but personally, they figured out how to get along, and they did respect each other. i love -- i love how tip o'neill always said to him, "don't worry about it, buddy," whenever they'd fight. politics ends at 6:00, and we'll talk about it, and everything will be fine. >> well, they had a

relationship. one of the real problems of the permanent campaign is our politicians in washington are never there with one another. >> right. >> they don't have those relationships that tip o'neill and ronald reagan had. we have to put this in context. look at our founding fathers. they were pro and against slavery. i mean, if they could sit down and compromise on a constitution, it's not that hard. that is what politics is about. >> yeah. >> and reagan and tip o'neill got it. they were consummately political animals in the best sense. >> there was a certain joy in the process. >> yeah. >> in the process that is lost. did you mention it earlier, did you see the movie? >> everybody should see this movie because it really is about politics in the best sense of the word. everyone says politics, but it wasn't. there were incredibly hard decisions that lincoln made and

he played tough. both sides can play tough, but it wasn't political theater. they sat down with one another and made deals. >> lincoln of course got savaged by both sides. that's what exactly is going to happen to president obama if he does a deal and goes after medicare and medicaid and social security. in return for getting the rich to pay more taxes. his own people will turn on him. >> he always had a self image that he wanted to be that. change the landscape. i think he can say he has done that and shown that the landscape has shifted. he wants to change the politics. you can say a lot of republicans say he made it worse. one of the raps on him is he request never take on his party. what you can see with the debate and moving into next year, he is

ready to take on entitlements and he will take a lot of heat from progressives. >> i agree completely. if he is going to build a great legacy, he will have to take on his own site. clinton went on the party line and he had to go against it. he governed left of center. what made clinton big was when he had the nerve to do things after he lost in 95 on welfare reform and balancing the budget and making tough choices going into bosnia. >> this compromise or set of compromises that gets us over the fiscal cliff will set the stage for president obama to craft a compromise and demographics. the republicans know they have to compromise and get something done on immigration. tax reform, the republicans have

said they want tax reform. president obama said the same. we need tax reform. immigration and tax reform post the fiscal cliff will create a legacy and may see congress doing something. >> that is why it is so important that they figure out a way to come together before the end of the year hopefully. if the environment is poisoned like it was after the stimulus, after the health care debate, the next four years will be ugh low. >> that's true. the higher number of women increases the chances. we will see. >> i saw the women here smiling. we were talking about how collaborative they were. the guys, not so much. >> we don't smile. i agree. the more women the better. i'm agreeing with you.

can i say nothing? i said the more women, the better. i'm agreeing with you. the more women, the less self destructive egos and getting to a deal. do you have a problem with that. >> no,i don't. >> go with it. i give up. >> all right. still ahead, hollywood mogul joins us on set and author sebastian younger will be here. more morning joe in a moment. ♪ for over 40 years, we've brought our passion

for fine coffee and espresso to people everywhere. but one place was impossible, until now. our lattes, espresso and brewed coffee, now in your home from a machine like no other. and now $50 off through january 1st. the verismo® system, by starbucks.

and now $50 off through january 1st. to the best vacation sp(all) the gulf! it doesn't matter which of our great states folks visit. mississippi, alabama, louisiana or florida, they're gonna love it. shaul, your alabama hospitality is incredible. thanks, karen. love your mississippi outdoors. i vote for your florida beaches, dawn. bill, this louisiana seafood is delicious. we're having such a great year on the gulf, we've decided to put aside our rivalry. now is the perfect time to visit anyone of our states. the beaches and waters couldn't be more beautiful. take a boat ride, go fishing or just lay in the sun. we've got coastline to explore and wildlife to photograph. and there's world class dining with our world famous seafood.

so for a great vacation this year, come to the gulf. its all fabulous but i give florida the edge. right after mississippi. you mean alabama. say louisiana or there's no dessert. this invitation is brought to you by bp and all of us who call the gulf home.

coming up, the protest gets heated after michigan passes legislation. the politics of labor, next on "morning joe." t there.

t there. - one serving of cheese is the size of four dice. one serving of cereal, a baseball. and one serving of fruit, a tennis ball. - you know, both parties agree. our kids can be healthier... the more you know.

good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast, 5:00 on the west coast. welcome back to "morning joe." time to wake up. >> happy 12-12-12. >> you know, by the time we get a 13th month, willie and i have been working around the clock since 11-11-11. we said we would be ready. we have the top 12 ways. i don't want to blow it. we do it later on. it's the top 12 list. it will blow you away. >> really?

with us on set, we have mike and harold ford, jr. >> he's number seven. >> right to work measures will be the law of the land in michigan. republican governor rick snyder signed despite widespread protest by labor unions. the law will make it illegal to require an employee to pay union duesas a condition of employment. >> let's explain that for a half second. right to work. what does it mean? it means that unions can force somebody to pay them if they want to get a job in the state of michigan. >> well, what it means is if you get a job, the union extracts money for the union dues. >> same thing. >> automatically. >> you get no choice. you want to work here, you have to pay us. what if i don't want to pay you. what if i don't want to support the candidates you want to

support. what if the candidates are the antethesis of my values? too bad. i never understood this. >> the governor said the unions started the fight by trying to add collective bargaining rights in the state's constitution. >> i asked them not to go forward. you will start a divicive discussion and get into the right to work. this discussion continued to become very divicive. i viewed it as on the table and it's a hot issue. let's show leadership. i stepped up to see when i review it, it's about being pro worker and economic development. we'll get more jobs because we will be more competitive. >> michigan has the fifth highest percentage of unionized workers and hardly alone in the laws. 23 other states have already done the same. there were heated moments at

yesterday's right to work rally in lansing, michigan. they show demonstrators tearing down the tent belonging to americans for prosperity with ties to the koch brothers. the group said they shared the video to show the true nature of unions. the group has sent out a fund-raiser and e-mail including this video. also yesterday a contributor for fox news said he was attacked by union supporters who were unhappy about the new legislation. that's terrible. he was trying to prevent the protesters from tearing down the americans for prosperity tent as people were trapped inside. he posted pictures claiming he suffered a chipped tooth and a small cut to the forehead.

>> there a lot of videos coming out. that's rough. >> really, really rough stuff. >> the interesting thing is early on he said he would watch whapz what happened in wisconsin and it's not what he wanted to do. he explained it through the fact that it's for economic development and choice. to watch the videos, we will see more of this going on. >> i don't understand the video. the punching. i don't understand it. >> i'm not justifying it. people feel threatened economically. >> that are doesn't justify people punching people because they feel threatened economically. >> conservatives go around punching people and it would be on every newscast in america. >> that's inexcusable. >> it is. i wonder about the double standard. tearing down tents and punching

people? i don't understand it. you can explain this stuff for me? i believe and i tuesday on the show time and time again. unions afterworld war 2 helped create a strong vibrant middle class. we talked about jobs coming back to america at $14, $15, $16 an hour. i'm glad they are here instead of china, but they should support $30 an hour jobs. i would be for that. better than a ceo destroying a company and getting a $200 million pay out. that said, what is wrong with a state allowing an american to work where he or she wants to work without being compelled to pay union dues? >> this state, michigan was such a part of the core of unionism in the country and the foundation of the united

automobile workers that had over a million workers in enrollment is down to roughly 350,000 workers. united automobile workers, everyone can own a car and the history of unionism has been linked to the growth of the middle class over the last 60 years that it leads to higher wages. >> what's wrong with giving people the freedom? >> nothing wrong with it. if i work in a shop and not pay a union i disagree with, shouldn't that be my right? >> it is your right. >> it's not my right if it's not a right to work state. >> i understand that, but the problem is that the unions having felt threatened over the last 20 to 25 years have taken a stand because they lose union dues. they used the dues over the course of 40 or 50 years, one of

the big instances is to elect. so they are confronted by a republican governor, senate and house. >> i need somebody to explain to me because i know there a lot of hardworking union people who think i'm anti-union. i'm not. they built the middle class and if i have to choose between a ceo making lots of money and the money getting spread around, i will take the that spreads it around. am i anti-union? is somebody anti-union? i will ask you. i should be able to work where i want to work and pay union dues if i want to pay union dues. is that an anti-union position or supporting freedom? >> i think it's supporting freedom. here there is another side to it. they helped people with the right to protect on the job to ensure that safety standards are

there. >> that's not answering the question though. >> the dues for the purpose also. >> you can't take that money from me if i don't want to give it. >> this is about political purposes. there is a broad set of reasons. >> you are still taking it from my pocket. i don't want to give it. >> we are making the workplace better and ensuring that you are protected. >> i can decide whether my workplace is better if i choose to go to a workplace? >> when you choose after being granted the right not to throw in union dues to the larger employee contribution, would you choose not to take the pay raise that the union negotiates for you three years from now. >> the free rider problem. you benefit from the gains. >> it's like the health care debate. you didn't put any money in, but you get the higher wage and the

benefits of the union guys that are receiving. you get it, but you don't pay for it. it's a free rider question. >> that makes sense, but there closed shops and open shops. that decision can be made there, correct? >> yeah. >> if i'm a union guy or woman, i would say let's negotiate for union members and union members will be put in a different category and give them training and higher skills and they get the pay raise and the nonunion people don't get the raise. >> i think your question is legitimate especially if the unions are not being effective in making the pay raises good. in making the workplace better. i think that's a good question today in terms of how well people are being paid. >> unions play an absolutely critical role, especially in an era where the richer getting

richer and the poor are getting poorer. the salaries have exploded over the past 25 years in a grotesque manner. >> how well are they doing? >> unfortunately union leverage is being stripped away by globalization and an it revolution and outsourcing that does. >> you asked the fundamental question. right to work states have because governor snyder argued this is a job development question. in right to work states, are there higher salaries and wages and more health care. a higher percentage of people in the middle class who work in the companies. >> dude, you are talking about michigan. i'm talking about michigan. you want to see how these laws work? look at michigan. >> there were a number of forces at work. >> look at rhode island and where unions have been the

strongest. look at the factories. i am not being anti-union. i am pro union. i want factories in connecticut and rhode island and massachusetts and across new england reopened. the jobs from overseas are not going there. they are not going there because of workforce rules and think even trump could have told me, we are outdated. >> is our education system outdated or union advocacy outdated? i think that question was put on the table. whether factories are shut, no doubt about it. if you look at the wages enjoyed by workers in right to work states, i think they should be. how do they fare? i have not done the analysis. >> it's a question whether you want the job or not. i asked bob riley and i said this a thousand times. it's appropriate if you are a

union member in the northeast and like me, you want your factories running again. i asked bob reilly. why did mercedes go to tuscaloosa, alabama instead of filling up the factories in connecticut. 15 minutes away from yale in rhode island. spent minutes away from brown. right by the most highly trained brilliant minds in the world. that's easy. the workforce rules are so insane that there is no way mercedes or airbus would dream of going to those states. do you want the jobs or do you not? >> that plays out across the south when an auto plant comes back and you get a bunch of jobs, but at a low wage. do you want to lower ourselves to the global standard of wages. >> a better option. >> stronger, but smaller in union states.

>> or a better option. there other factors. >> back to michigan in the capitol building, it was heated. the state representative painted the repercussions in stark terms. >> we are going to pass something that will undo 100 years of labor relations. "there will be blood." there will be repercussions. we will relive the battle of the overpass. >> the house democrat tweeted the comments and they released a statement saying i don't want to see history repeated. we stand against the use of violence. >> have gone outside the capital. >> we condemn violence and other illegal activity in the strongest terms. >> that happened after he made those statements. destruction of property, violence. >> of this legislation to stand

by me. >> union leaders talking about civil war. okay. it's a really fascinating and disturbing discussion. >> with the union strength and union membership of this country, it's a big story. >> when are we come back, author of the best selling book war, sebastian junger talks about a journalist trying to survive in the war zone. the man who is bringing bruce springsteen and the who and paul cartney benefiting ongoing sandy relief. harvey wein stein. first a check of the weather. >> good morning, everyone. interesting thigs happngs a wee

now. umbrella weather in georgia and south carolina and eastern north carolina. that's not forward. more where that came from. mobile through the panhandle. on the west coast a storm bring light rain to san francisco and sacramento area and the northwest. this is very light. on interstate 80 or i-5, just a little bit of wet weather for you. a calm day around the country and except for the clouds and the southeast and the west coast. let me get your attention. next week about this time, a possible coastal storm. we are very vulnerable after hurricane sandy and the dunes are way down. this looked to be more of an impact in new england. not a lot of cold air and not thinking there would be a big snowstorm. we could see large waves and high winds in between the high pressure and the storm south of new england. we will watch that for you and the middle of next week without a blockbuster event. we leave you with a shot of

washington, d.c. a nice five days ahead of you. enjoy. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. music is a universal language. but when i was in an accident... i was worried the health care system spoke a language all its own with unitedhealthcare, i got help that fit my life.

information on my phone. connection to doctors who get where i'm from. and tools to estimate what my care may cost. so i never missed a beat. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for more than 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. we create easy to use, powerful trading tools for all. look at these streaming charts! they're totally customizable and they let you visualize what might happen next. that's genius! strategies, chains, positions. we put 'em all on one screen! could we make placing a trade any easier? mmmm...could we? open an account today and get a free 13-month e ibd™ subscription when you call 1-888-280-0157 now. optionsxpress by charles schwab. with brandy who is stocking up for the holidays. look at that price. that's great! if you find a lower advertised price, walmart will match it at the register. really? yeah. there you have it. oh my goodness!

that's the walmart low price guarantee. see for yourself. bring in your last receipt and see how much you can save. be ready. with the season's tastiest brands. like farm rich mozzarella bites. bite-sized and loaded with mozzarella cheese. walmart has everything you need to be ready for holiday hosting. with our low price guarantee backed by ad match. walmart.

>> 21 past the hour. the sun is coming up over washington. joining us now, contributing editor and best selling author, sebastian junger.

a world made of blood. we have been following this over the years. tell us about it. >> i was there during the civil war and this was my first african civil war and it was uniquely terrifying. of course i'm a journalist and that's mostly what i do, but in this case after i finished my assignment, a few years later i thought i would try to write fiction for a journalist. it seems like a no go zone. i thought i would give it a try. this is taking my experience that is already seeing how i react and how other people would react. watching it play out in a fictional way. >> the overhappen happelap is protagonist of the book? >> it's a short story. maybe it's a book in the internet sense, but i just

downloaded it. i was reading it. >> how is it? >> it's -- daniel is a jung reporter. we have known these people and the story seems to be going the way of most realistic stories. the veteran photographer in a war zone where you don't know who is on what side and dangerous occupation covering wars. i will see what happens, but i don't want to ask because i don't want you to tell me that story. the topic of covering this is so much different than it was certainly in vietnam and certainly the first gulf war. >> as in syria and libya in my tim was last clear, you are not quite sure who is who. one of the scariest things about being there in 2003 was that you forget about the enemy.

you weren't even sure if you could trust the people you were with. drugged out teenagers. it's terrifying and a completely different thing. you just have to knock it out by the enemy. it's simple. what actually happened was on the way back from the frontline, i was in a jeep with soldiers and we were stopped by rebels at a check point. they stepped out with guns and they were going to shoot us. i spent 15 minutes getting myself ready to die. they didn't. it felt like it got really close. >> things have gotten much more difficult for troops in afghanistan. a country you know so much about. unfortunately even on the military bases, u.s. troops are walking around every day wondering if the next afghan soldier they walk past is going to draw a gun and put a bullet

in their head. >> it's the military equivalent you have as a journalist working in a civil war in the mideast. you don't know if you can trust the person you are talking to. for a soldier or a journalist, you are always prepared and never relax. >> that's the state of mind our troops are in right now in afghanistan. it's got to have a horrific impact and you talked about the impact wondering whether you are going to be shot by a sniper every second of every day. strange things we do to the mind. this state you are talking about seems to make it almost impossible for the troops to carry out their mission effectively. >> i haven't been there in a while, but it's sort of last call. the lights went out and everyone knows they are going home. i think the guys want to make it

through in piece and probably aren't thinking that much about the overall mission. that's my guess. >> while we are looking at the "new york times" article on afghanistan. one out of 23 are ready. how do you think that impacts the mission in terms of morale and the guys who have been there again and again and again. yet we are only at this point. >> it's probably very, very frustrating. i know from being with american forces over there, they really do think probably correctly they provide their own security. i never saw anyone count on the afghan forces. any american soldiers count on them in a firefight. the embedded trainers, i think they develop a personal feeling for those guys and think it must be frustrating to them to see it

not go very well. again, we are leaving. the main thing in a soldier's mind is getting home alive. if the war works or not is secondary. it's not up there with am i going to get home. >> i have a question just to come back to the characters in the book and your friend tim. camera men and photographers cannot hide. why do they keep going back. >> every assignment i have been on, they work side by side. if they are writing about something and it's not photographed, they have to work together. the writers are running about the same risks. overall what drives them to take risks, i think there is a sense of commission that this is important. if the world does not see what's happening, the world will be a worse place.

there is also personal ambition. it's an impressive job. people are impressed by it. that drives people. doing that job when they come back to a desk job in new york, forget it. it's not going to happen. it's a mix of those things. >> in these increasingly listly defined war zone in places like syria and libya and egypt where it's not really a war zone, but there is so much contentiousness. there no navy corps men that can you call. tell us about your saving of these programs. >> after tim died, he was wounded and he bled out. he didn't have to tie. i called it reporters and saving colleagues. the website is risk training.org. we raise money to train free lance war reporters.

90% is done by free lancers. they are usually young. you have to have been in a war zone. it's a free three-day course in new york three times a year. the lodging is free and the training and the medical kit. we are training up the hundreds of reporters who are covering the war zones. >> the ebook is a world made of blood. you can read it on our blog. sebastian junger. >> download it right now. >> there on his new toy. literally. you guys, this is why. >> he's got big hands. >> it's amazing. >> we'll be right back. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back with producer harvey weinstein.

try running four.ning a restaurant is hard, fortunately we've got ink. it gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at office supply stores. rewards we put right back into our business. this is the only thing we've ever wanted to do and ink helps us do it. make your mark with ink from chase. ...so as you can see, geico's customer satisfaction is at 97%. mmmm tasty. and cut! very good. people are always asking me how we make these geico adverts. so we're taking you behind the scenes. this coffee cup, for example, is computer animated. it's not real. geico's customer satisfaction is quite real though. this computer-animated coffee tastes dreadful.

geico. 15 minutes could save you 15 % or more on car insurance. someone get me a latte will ya, please? she also likes to ride her bike. she knows the potential for making or losing money can pop up anytime. that's why she trades with the leader in mobile trading. so she's always ready to take action, no matter how wily... or weird... or wonderfully the market's behaving... which isn't rocket science.

it's just common sense. from td ameritrade.

it's just common sense. restore revive rejuvenate rebuild rebuild rebuild >> it's going to be good. joining us now, producer harvey

weinstein. he is producing the 12-12-12 sandy relief concert broadcast on radio and the web. all proceeds will go to the robin hood foundation for relief efforts. >> the list is remarkable. springsteen and the e street band. paul mccartney and the rolling stones and billy joel. kanye west, alicia keys and eric clapton and roger waters. >> good lord. >> the list goes on and on. this is staggering. dicab dicaprio will be there and the hosts of "saturday night live." amazing event. tell us about it. >> jim runs madison square garden and amc channels is my best buddy. years ago, we did the concert for new york.

we wanted to be affected by it. with robin hood which i'm on the board for, we raised $65 million. this is the first to say yes for a good cause. always there. we raised $65 mi yon. we have the money right now. it was out three weeks later. already on this concert, we have done $19 million on the selling tickets last time. worth $35 million now without the telethon and without that stuff. we put it in the street already. we will get this money out. we are not an organization, but have overhead costs. robin hood takes care of that. the money goes into the community. >> there different ways people can see the concert. we were talking from local theaters to going online.

>> there 37 networks in america. there so many networks carrying it. at the same time you can stream it. we set up with the company at clear view theaters. 33 theaters in the highest hard hit areas. we are going to get all the people affected by the storm and have been invited already. we made arrangements with popcorn and stereo sound and putting it on the big movie theater. bill crystal is coming out to a location. we will do a live remote event. billy will be there. >> what's adam sandler going to do? >> adam sandler has written a song. >> this is the r-rated portion. the 37 channels. he has written a song about sandy. when you hear the name sandy, you will never think of sandy in any respectful way again.

i'm sorry. >> of course you bring that up. >> john travolta said that. >> a couple of things. the enormous contribution you made to people's sandy as well as well being in the wake of september 11. the 9/11 concert, one of the more memorable moments, why don't you tell us about that. >> mike moran, we have the pressure of the world on the 9/11 concert. bill and hillary are there and so much pressure around the world. the anthrax scare we had at madison square garden which we didn't tell too many people about. they wanted to close the concert and what we say is come on, guys. we have to keep this pg or they will shut us down. sandler starts with the script and does an amazing thing. the line of the night was mike moran who gets up on stage to

introduce them in a professional stylish way. he said osama bin laden can kiss my royal irish ass. mike moran is a hero. he did amazing things during the storm. even while his house was getting destroyed to save other people. he is here tonight. >> how can people get money? it will be fun. >> robin hood relief on the web. there will be phone numbers and telephone operators and we have the greatest sports stars. kobe bryant and amare and messier. 12 victoria secret models on the telephones. ben stiller. there will be celebrities and the idea is we are going to reach the people being supervised all over the world.

every time in jakarta or japan americans have always given. this time we need the help. we are going to the world and saying come help us. you are seeing hong kong. you build things to help you prevent that storm. there is new technology and we need to restructure our own situation here. >> thank you so much for coming to talk about it, but most importantly thank you for doing this and putting this together. a remarkable event and we all remember what happened ten years ago and love that the money got out and we will do it again. >> ge made a huge donation and samsung. this is congress that should watch us. the republicans and democrats who come together and the

private enterprise. i want john boehner to meet all these people who came together for the good. you talk about the fiscal cliff. bring congress and they can back up their own stones. i would love to see boehner with a stone. >> for would be perfect. >> nice to see you. award season is coming up. >> what's award season. >> how many are you going to nab? >> i would like a couple of good movies. dustin hoffman is called that. 75-year-old first time director. >> i love it. >> i'm going to see it. >> the d is silent. >> great to see you. >> come tonight. >> always. the 12-12-12 concert at 7:30 p.m. the 121212 concert.org.

what does it take to uproot one of the largest hotel empires? scott wapner gives us a look at this new documentary behind closed doors at marriott. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso. in what world do potatoes, bacon and cheese add up to 100 calories? your world. ♪ [ whispers ] real bacon...

creamy cheese... 100 calories... [ chef ] ma'am [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. how they'll live tomorrow. for more than 116 years, ameriprise financial has worked for their clients' futures. helping millions of americans retire on their terms. when they want. where they want. doing what they want. ameriprise. the strength of a leader in retirement planning. the heart of 10,000 advisors working with you one-to-one.

together for your future. ♪ together for your future. of washington about the future of medicare and social security. anncr: but you deserve straight talk about the options on the... table and what they mean for you and your family. ancr: aarp is cutting through all the political spin. because for our 37 million members, only one word counts. get the facts at earnedasay.org. let's keep medicare... and social security strong for generations to come. boproductivity up, costs down, thtime to market reduced... those are good things. upstairs, they will see fantasy.

not fantasy... logistics. ups came in, analyzed our supply chain, inventory systems... ups? ups. not fantasy? who would have thought? i did. we did, bob. we did. got it. . i walk into the hotel and you have a few rooms available that night. you say sir, the room will be $300. i say how about $200. here's $200. do you take it? >> no. no way. >> '? >> that's the fade. >> there is a term for that. >> you just traded that company.

don't book in advance. >> you would rather the room go empty than give it to me? >> yes. you don't want to train customers to wait and get a better deal. >> that was cnbc's hotel behind closed doors at marriott. behind the documentary, scott wapner. that was interesting right there. i never knew that. that doesn't make sense. >> i figured you could walk in. the room is $300. i will give you $200 or $250. they don't want to condition you to know that you can get that room for a cheaper price. >> not to be disorganized too. >> believe me, this is a science at how they price hotel rooms. they are constantly manipulating the data and looking at the data to figure out how to get every last penny for that room. we may stay at a hotel room next

door and i can pay $150 and you can pay $350 for the same room depending on when you book. >> i don't like that at all. >> on the websites that get you last minute deals, i never have done it myself, but isn't that part of the policy as well? you can get a cheaper rate. >> you can search and find different rates, but if you go through marriott.com, they are studying all your moves that you make on that website. all of your behavior to try to figure out what kind of traveler you are. whether you are likely to travel for personal or business use. at the end of the day, the name of the game for marriott is get every single penny they can out of you. >> how did marriott get to be so big? why did mare not -- >> not take the room when you can take the money right there. >> it's a great american story. you are talking about a family

that crossed the plains and settled outside of washington, d.c. and started with an a and w root beer stand that turned into a hot shots restaurant and started with one hotel and realized they can be big. bill mare the loti who retired against his father's wishes wants to get in the hotel business. his father didn't like debt. bill marriott starts this hotel and turns out to be huge. marriott marquee in time square turns out to be big. time square back in the day was not the greatest place. a little bit seed. it turns out to be this fantastic property that lifts marriott corporation and time square in general. here's a good fact for you. mitt romney, first name is willard named after jw marriott. the families go back a long way together and not a lot of people

know that. >> even now. >> i don't think they do. >> what did you find given the fact that you specialize in business and all these things, what is most surprising in doing the research for this documentary? >> just the lengths that marriott is willing to go to be successful and conquer the world. we went to india with them and mumbai. it's one of the huge growth markets. maybe 15 property there is now. they want 50. it's a tremendous country of contrast. incredible poverty on one side. i walk down the street in india and say what in the world is marriott thinking? what do they see? then you go to mumbai and then you see it. they are all over the world in dangerous places where you would never think they would be. cairo, islamabad and libya. they are all over the place. where are they not?

they are everywhere. 3700 properties in 74 countries. a few untapped markets, but not many. >> behind closed doors at marriott. premiers 9:00 eastern on specific times. scott wapner, thank you very much. great to have on the show. we'll be right back with the best of late night. ♪ i am the ghost of cookies past. residue. so gross. well you didn't use new pam, so it looks like you're "stuck" with me. [ female announcer ] bargain brand cooking spray leaves annoying residue. that's why there's new pam.

darrell hasn't been able to visit his mom back east in a long time. [ mom ] things are sometimes a little tight. i wasn't able to go to the wedding. [ emily jo ] since darrell couldn't get home, we decided to bring home to him and then just gave him a little bit of help finding his way. ♪ [ laughs ] [ applause ] i love you. i love you. [ male announcer ] get together at the rekindle share event. buy one holiday drink, get one free this thursday through sunday.

military families face, we understand. at usaa, we know military life is different. we've been there. that's why every bit of financial advice we offer is geared specifically to current and former military members and their families. [ laughs ] dad! dad! [ applause ] ♪ [ male announcer ] life brings obstacles. usaa brings advice. call or visit us online. we're ready to help.

. >> it's a special time of the year. we have been looking forward to it for months. you can see the twinkle in children's eyes. in a few short weeks, the fiscal cliff is coming to town. merry cliff mas. with a dramatic name like fiscal cliff, it has to be exciting. jim? >> the president is asking for 1.6 trillion. >> $600 billion in tax hikes. >> dividends and capital gains. >> discretionary spending. >> i'm up. what happened? is it over? >> pro union protesters are

swarming the michigan capitol building in lansing. >> you're disgusting. >> dude, you are from michigan, detroit. eight mile. you have to come up with better miles than busting and disgusting. if you want to win the rap battle, put effort into it. >> you have one job. one factory. when you seize every benefit you could, yo, my palms are sweaty and knees weak working in the factory building chevies. you plug it in and you win. ecologically because if it was an actual race you would not actually. you got to collect for the union or robots are going to take away our jobs or to the chinese kids

with the tiny hands the work will go. this opportunity comes once in a lifetime yo. >> we are locking at heavy rain and we will see improvements as the cold front clears the area. most of the country looks okay. boston is 41 degrees. new york city is 47 with a good deal of sunshine. chilly down through atlanta at 52. even chicago with partly cloudy skies and topping out around 42. plus a 50% annual bonus.

and everyone...but her likes 50% more cash. but i'm upping my game. do you want a candy cane? yes! do you want the puppy? yes! do you want a tricycle? yes! do you want 50 percent more cash? no! ♪ festive. [ male announcer ] the capital one cash rewards card gives you 1% cash back on every purchase plus a 50% annual bonus on the cash you earn. it's the card for people who like more cash. what's in your wallet? [ male announcer ] it started long ago.

the joy of giving something everything you've got. it takes passion. and it's not letting up anytime soon. at unitedhealthcare insurance company, we understand that commitment. and always have. so does aarp, an organization serving the needs of americans 50 and over for generations. so it's no surprise millions have chosen an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like all standardized medicare supplement plans, they help cover some of the expenses medicare doesn't pay. and save you up to thousands in out-of-pocket costs. to find out more, request your free decision guide. call or go online today. after all, when you're going the distance, it's nice to have the experience and commitment to go along with you. keep dreaming. keep doing. go long.

>> time to talk about what we learned. lindsay. "morning joe." lock at this. not bad. wait for example a nice guy? are you sure you know what you are doing? you can still change your mind? congratulations. that's great. engaged to be married. >> i know. i just congratulated her. >> what are did you learn? >> once again robin hood foundation and harvey weinstein put together a concert to help the victims of hurricane sandy the same as ten or 11 years ago for september 11. the new york city firefighters who was the star of that show is going